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1999-02-11 * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 CITY OF SOUTHLAKE 2 JUC -JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEETING 3 4 February 11, 1999 5 6 MINUTES 7 8 9 Board Members Present: Doug Strickland, Chair and CISD Board Representative; Gary 10 Fawks, Vice Chair and City Council Representative; Wendi Carlucci, City Council 11 Appointed Citizen. 12 13 Board Members Absent: Buddy Luce, CISD Board Representative; James Glover, Parks 14 and Recreation Board Representative. 15 16 Staff Members Present: Kevin Hugman, Director of Community Services; John Eaglen, 17 Administrative Assistant. 18 19 20 Agenda Item No. 1, Call to order — The meeting was called to order by Doug Strickland at 21 7:18 p.m. 22 23 Agenda Item No. 2, Administrative Comments — Mr. Hugman introduced John Eaglen, 24 Administrative Assistant. Mr. Strickland announced that Ms. Carlucci has expressed 25 concern about the gymnasium space at Carroll Junior High School. Mr. Strickland 26 announced that in 2002 a final bond election will occur. Part of this bond election includes a 27 second phase to Carroll Junior High School. The planned proposal includes an auditorium 28 and a competition gymnasium similar to the existing facilities at Carroll High School, 29 cafeteria expansion, new classrooms to increase the capacity of Carroll Junior High School to 30 handle two thousand students, and a fieldhouse. Mr. Strickland said the logic behind the 31 decision not to include increased bleacher space in the two current facilities is that there 32 would be a lot of underutilized seating in these gyms when the new competition gymnasium 33 is built in four or five years. The decision allows the school district to stay within state 34 mandated debt financing limits and allows the district to pay down current debt obligations 35 prior to increased borrowing. Mr. Strickland acknowledged that over the next four years 36 there will be a limited capacity in gym space for the current students. At this time Mr. 37 Strickland stated he has not heard of any discussions about using the current two 38 gymnasiums as joint use facilities. When the competition gymnasium is constructed the 39 current gymnasiums could become joint use facilities. 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 1 of 7 L:IParkRecICOMITEESIJUCIMINUTES 199 minutes12- 11- 99.doc * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 2 3 4 Consider: 5 6 Agenda Item No. 3, Approval of minutes of the January 14, 1999 meeting — Motion was 7 made to approve the minutes of the January 14, 1999 meeting. 8 9 Motion: Fawks 10 Second: Carlucci 11 Ayes: Carlucci, Fawks, Strickland 12 Nayes: None 13 Approved: 3 -0 14 15 Discuss: 16 17 Agenda Item No. 4, Potential Joint Use Gymnasium at Carroll Junior High School — Mr. 18 Strickland said that this has been discussed previously, and he has discussed this with Fred 19 Maples, the on- campus athletic director at Carroll Junior High School about joint use of the 20 two current gyms. His discussions with Carroll Junior High School have revealed an interest 21 in using the current facilities as joint use facilities, however to date there have been no 22 serious discussions about such use at these facilities. Mr. Fawks inquired about whether or 23 not the current gymnasiums are structurally conducive to serving as joint use facilities. Mr. 24 Strickland replied that the current facilities do not have outside access and cannot be blocked 25 off. 26 27 Ms. Carlucci said that her intent for discussion on this item is directed at the planned 28 competition gymnasium. She further stated that her original inquiry into the construction 29 costs for a gymnasium produced a figure of around two million dollars. At this level the 30 potential exists for the city and the school district to leverage the money necessary to 31 construct the gymnasium and provide adequate gym space for the current students. When the 32 bond issue comes up in 2002 the school district would then have the resources necessary to 33 reimburse the city for their portion of the construction costs. At this point the joint use 34 designation on the facility would no longer be required. Ms. Carlucci said that after speaking 35 with Julie Thannum she found the construction costs for a larger gymnasium are closer to a 36 seven million dollar range. This varies from a cost range of one million dollars to construct a 37 gymnasium similar to the facility at Rockenbaugh Elementary. She has requested a detailed 38 cost breakdown to identify where the additional costs for a competition gymnasium arise 39 from, as she does not understand how the inclusion of bleachers explains the cost variance 40 between facilities. 41 42 Mr. Strickland said that a gymnasium similar to the existing facility at Carroll High School 43 has more features than simply bleachers. This type of facility is actually three gymnasiums 44 and includes features such as moveable bleachers. Ms. Carlucci stated that the seven million 45 dollar estimate presented to her did not include constructing a facility with three sides, but 46 rather constructing one area of gym space. 47 Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 2 of 7 L: IParkRecICOMITEESIJUCIMINUTES199 minutesl2- 11- 99.doc * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 Ms. Carlucci said she feels that constructing the competition gymnasium is important to the 2 whole community. Such a gymnasium allows for functions that gather students of all ages at 3 once. Conversations she has had with residents about the current gymnasiums reflect the 4 belief that additional bleacher space is available and that the wall separating the two 5 gymnasiums is a portable structure. 6 7 Mr. Strickland asked Ms. Carlucci if Julie Thannum indicated if she would provide 8 additional information, and Ms. Carlucci replied that a request for this information was e- 9 mailed to her today. Mr. Strickland proposed that this item be placed on the agenda for the 10 next meeting, and he would try to get Bob Ledbetter and /or Kevin Kline to provide further 11 information. This includes what the facility is going to be, what is the facility going to look 12 like, what is the facility supposed to do, where is the facility going to go, and the cost 13 breakdown of such a facility. This information will allow the committee further evaluate the 14 potential for such a facility. 15 16 Mr. Strickland asked Ms. Carlucci if the school district needs to find resources to construct 17 additional capacity in the current facilities and stated that with the current design this would 18 be limited. Ms. Carlucci agreed with this and stated an idea of taking out the wall and 19 installing bleacher space occurred to her. She said that this issue should have been thought 20 about earlier. Mr. Strickland again explained the logic behind the current facilities, and Ms. 21 Carlucci expressed her desire to see a new gymnasium constructed with an appropriate 22 capacity. She said that other proposed facilities could be constructed later, however a 23 gymnasium with an appropriate capacity is important. She stated that isolating students in 24 different grades due to the lack of an adequate facility leads to problems for the children. 25 Mr. Strickland clarified that Ms. Carlucci wants a facility that allows for functions that hold 26 all students and asked if expanding the cafeteria would meet these guidelines. Ms. Carlucci 27 replied that there are functions the school conducts that an expanded cafeteria would 28 accommodate, however these functions cannot take place in the current facility. She has 29 spoken with the fire marshal concerning this after the school administration had told her that 30 all students could fit in the cafeteria. The fire marshal stated that all of the students could not 31 fit into the cafeteria in it's current design. Mr. Strickland replied that the stage in the 32 cafeteria is temporary and that the windows on the north side of the cafeteria will be moved 33 to expand to a capacity adequate to accommodate two thousand students. He suggests that it 34 may be beneficial to look at adding a competition gymnasium and looking at expanding the 35 cafeteria to resolve the capacity problems. 36 37 Ms. Carlucci said she thought that doing something with the city allows the parks and 38 recreation division to conduct programs requiring a gymnasium. Mr. Strickland suggested 39 that the city is not going to be interested in participating in the exapnsion of the cafeteria at 40 Carroll Junior High School. Mr. Fawks stated that city funding directed at gymnasium 41 construction is in the future past the second bond issue by the school district, and may not 42 concur with the timeline for this project. Mr. Fawks suggested that discussions about 43 funding joint use natatoriums and gymnasiums erodes the possibility of constructing a 44 recreation center for the entire community, as all funding will be directed to these facilities. 45 Mr. Fawks spoke with the Director of the YMCA in Fort Worth, and he has had discussions 46 about natatoriums and gymnasiums in Southlake for the community. Mr. Strickland said 47 there have been past discussions of these types of facilities operated and managed by the Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 3 of 7 L: IParkRecICOMITEESJUCIMINUTESl99 minutes12- 11- 99.doc * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 YMCA. Mr. Fawks stated that the YMCA has an interest in operating these facilities, and 2 that their selling point is the ability to turn facilities that lose revenue into facilities that break 3 even or produce revenues. Ms. Carlucci stated that she and Bob Ledbetter were on the board 4 that evaluated this possibility. Mr. Fawks stated he did not know of the direction of these 5 past discussions. 6 7 Mr. Hugman said that he explained to Ms. Carlucci earlier in the week about the existence of 8 the parks five year capital improvement program, and that project funding is prioritized by 9 the Park and Recreation Board over a five year period. He also stated that one of the 10 concerns in funding a joint use natatorium was whether funding such a facility would require 11 the Park and Recreation Board to reshuffle their priorities. Mr. Hugman said that reshuffling 12 priorities is an area of concern for the Park and Recreation Board. He said that funding for a 13 joint use gymnasium is included in the program, however the funding is allocated in the fifth 14 year. Mr. Hugman stated that a community center is scheduled for funding in year three. 15 Projects in this program are prioritized based upon the perceived need. He said that projects 16 receiving funding this year are things that already are in progress, such as projects related to 17 Bob Jones Park and Bicentennial Park. Mr. Hugman said that such progress makes it 18 difficult to reshuffle project funding in the current year plan. He said that developing 19 neighborhood parks where land is secured has been put off for a couple of years in the 20 program due to funding limitations. Mr. Hugman stated he attended a SPIN retreat on 21 Saturday to give a presentation on trails and neighborhood parks, and there is a lot of 22 community interest in progressing with these projects. He also stated that the program has 23 funding reserved for land acquisition, but that the level of funding is insufficient. Mr. 24 Hugman stated the need to acquire land may require reshuffling projects as land becomes 25 available. Mr. Hugman said that implementing the capital improvement program is a 26 balancing act. 27 28 Ms. Carlucci responded that she understands the situation, and said that looking at the big 29 picture it is important to have a facility where all students can be together at once. She said 30 that it is important to have a facility to accommodate spectators so younger children could 31 watch activities and gain inspiration to participate in the future. Ms. Carlucci said that she is 32 looking for funding alternatives to construct an adequate facility. Mr. Fawks asked Mr. 33 Strickland where the school district stands on their current bond issue. Mr. Strickland 34 responded that the second presentation on the current bond issue is this evening. Mr. Fawks 35 asked if it is still possible to include a competition gymnasium on the current bond issue. 36 Mr. Strickland replied that at this stage it is too late for additions. 37 38 Ms. Carlucci stated that she believes such a facility is important and is looking for funding 39 alternatives. Mr. Fawks asked Ms. Carlucci if she believes the teen center can help 40 supplement this project. Ms. Carlucci responded that she believes the teen center could 41 become a teen crisis center if there is not adequate facilities for young children to view older 42 children participating in positive activities. She said she believes that the failure to have 43 adequate facilities can result in a generation of kids who do not wish to participate in positive 44 activities. She said that the current eighty five percent rate of participation in extra curricular 45 activities will drop in the future as a result of not having adequate facilities. Mr. Fawks 46 asked if the Junior High allows people to watch activities. Ms. Carlucci responded that 47 spectators are allowed but there is currently no space to sit down and watch an activity. Mr. Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 4 of 7 L: IParkRecICOMITEESIJUCIMINUTES199 minutesl2- 11- 99.doc * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 Strickland stated that junior high activities do not generate crowds similar to the high 2 schools, however Mr. Strickland acknowledged that there would be a capacity problem for 3 the next three or four years until the competition gymnasium can be constructed. Mr. Fawks 4 stated that he understood about the capacity problems for pep rallys, but wanted clarity on 5 the capacity situation for games. Ms. Carlucci stated that these games attract families with a 6 lot of little children, and there is not enough room and it requires lining them up along the 7 wall. Mr. Strickland said that lining children up along the walls poses a problem in keeping 8 them off of the court. Ms. Carlucci followed up that the end result is that families will not 9 come to activities at the gymnasium. Ms. Carlucci suggested that this situation is 10 problematic. 11 12 Mr. Strickland stated that this item would be on the next meeting agenda, and that he would 13 arrange to have Carroll ISD representatives at the meeting to discuss what the gymnasium is 14 going to be, where it is going to go, and estimates on a cost breakdown. Mr. Strickland 15 stated that it would be beneficial to have representatives from the parks and recreation 16 division present to hear what is discussed at the next meeting. Mr. Strickland said that he 17 understands that the parks and recreation division has a tight budget and that there is a need 18 for a gymnasium with adequate capacity and that there will be a need for several years. Mr. 19 Hugman mentioned that James Glover is the Park and Recreation Board representative and 20 that he would speak with him about this issue. Mr. Strickland stated he would arrange to 21 have Carroll ISD representatives at the next meeting with a cost breakdown. Ms. Carlucci 22 stated she wanted to have a no frills gymnasium with bleachers. 23 24 Agenda Item No. 5, Future Joint Use Facilities, Projects, and Goals — Mr. Strickland 25 suggested that they have been discussing this item. Mr. Strickland asked if there are any 26 other discussion items in this area. Mr. Strickland said that hopefully by the next meeting 27 Caroll ISD will have passed Proposition Two and Three, and at this point Carroll ISD will 28 have some work to do. Mr. Strickland stated that he would like to have the Joint Use 29 Committee and Park and Recreation representatives involved in the facilities planning. Mr. 30 Strickland stated that if facilities are going to be a joint use facility, he would like to see it 31 planned that way from day one. Mr. Strickland said that the only thing that is set concerning 32 the proposition items is the location. Mr. Fawks asked if what Mr. Strickland is referring to 33 is the proposed stadium or the natatorium. Mr. Strickland stated he was referring to the 34 proposed natatorium. 35 36 Mr. Fawks asked about the proposed stadium location. Mr. Strickland said that the issue of 37 stadium location came up at a presentation last night. Mr. Fawks said that citizens are 38 continually asking why the proposed stadium location is not in the Town Square area. Mr. 39 Strickland answered that first of all, the school district was only given seven acres to 40 construct a stadium at the Town Square location. Mr. Strickland said that based upon the 41 engineering dimesions, the stadium would have to be double decked on the home side to get 42 the seating capacity they wanted. Mr. Strickland further stated that constructing adequate 43 parking facilities was another issue with the Town Square location. Mr. Fawks said that he 44 disagreed about the parking issue, that off site parking could exist for a couple of years and 45 would be acceptable to the public. Mr. Fawks said eliminating the parking issue, what would 46 it take to build the stadium in Town Square? Mr. Strickland said that the price is prohibitive, Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 5 of 7 L: IParkRecICOMITEESIJUCIMINUTES199 minutesl2- 11- 99.doc * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 with estimates running from six to eight dollars a square foot compared with the pricing of 2 the proposed location at two dollars a square foot. 3 4 Ms. Carlucci stated she thought the developer was donating the seven acres to the school 5 district. Mr. Fawks said that his understanding was that the developer was not giving the 6 land to the school district, but that the land would be sold at a good price. Mr. Strickland 7 said that the savings would be eaten up by other costs in developing what they wanted, and 8 therefore the school district did not have the money to build what they wanted at the Town 9 Square location. Mr. Strickland said his ideal location for the facility would be at Carroll 10 High School, but that there was negative feedback from the community when this was 11 proposed. Mr. Strickland said there was a lot of public sentiment against renovating Dragon 12 Stadium also. 13 14 Mr. Fawks said that he would like to continue the discussion at some point about what can be 15 done to make Town Square a more feasible location for constructing the stadium. Mr. Fawks 16 said that he believes that the parking issue can be worked around, and if that was the only 17 barrier a discussion should still be ongoing. Mr. Fawks suggested that if it takes another acre 18 to make this location more feasible, then it should be discussed. Mr. Fawks said that the 19 developer has adjusted his plan, which may necessitate the donation of additional land to the 20 city. Mr. Fawks said he would have no problem going to the developer seeking additional 21 land if it would help improve the scenario for constructing the stadium in Town Square. Mr. 22 Strickland reiterated that the cost is still prohibitive even when eliminating the parking 23 garage construction. Mr. Fawks stated that parking structures will eventually be constructed 24 in Town Square and that a short term parking situation can be arranged given the number of 25 dates the facility would be in use. Mr. Fawks said that busing spectators in from other 26 locations would be acceptable to the public in the short run. Ms. Carlucci suggested busing 27 spectators in from Rockenbaugh Elementary, and Mr. Fawks concurred. 28 29 Ms. Carlucci stated she believes that a stadium in Town Square is a great idea. Ms. Carlucci 30 suggested that a stadium located in Town Square would be beneficial to local businesses. 31 Mr. Fawks said that the belief of the City Council is that a Town Square Stadium is 32 beneficial because it would be located in the Tax Increment Financing Zone. Mr. Strickland 33 said the current proposed location is also in the Tax Increment Financing Zone. Mr. Fawks 34 inquired about the amount of TIF money that would need to be allocated to improving 35 Kimball due to the current stadium location. Mr. Fawks said the road improvement money 36 could be allocated to the stadium itself, and that traffic would be diverted into Town Square, 37 generating money inside the TIF. Mr. Fawks said a Town Square Stadium could be an 38 economic engine for the community. Mr. Strickland said that at this point the stadium 39 location is established at the Kimball location. 40 41 Mr. Strickland stated there are other advantages to the proposed location, mainly the 42 availability of multiple entrances to the location. Mr. Strickland stated that road 43 improvement to Kimball Avenue is something that will have to be addressed at some point in 44 the future. Mr. Fawks said it was his understanding that Carroll ISD would divert a portion of 45 their TIF money for Kimball Avenue improvements. Mr. Strickland said that it has been 46 discussed in the past. Mr. Strickland said that he hopes at the meeting next month Carroll 47 ISD would have a lot to discuss. Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 6 of 7 L: IParkRecICOMITEESIJUCIMINUTES199 minutes12- 11- 99.doc * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 2 Ms. Carlucci inquired about the Proposition, that a vote for the proposition also approves the 3 proposed location. Mr. Strickland verified that this is the case, and said there were four 4 proposed locations for the stadium. Mr. Strickland said that the Kimball location was the 5 best alternative due to public forum response and from telephone survey responses. Ms. 6 Carlucci asked if people were given the alternative of a Town Square location. Mr. 7 Strickland said all four locations were opitions at one time or another, and the Town Square 8 location was the most expensive. Mr. Strickland stated that Carroll ISD was told from the 9 last bond election the cost of the stadium was excessive, and thus required scaling the plans 10 back. Mr. Strickland stated that the current proposal will require additional funding in the 11 future for necessary improvements. Mr. Strickland asked if there were any other items for 12 discussion. 13 14 Agenda Item No. 6, Adjournment — The meeting was adjourned by Chair Doug Strickland at 15 7:50 p.m. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Doug Strickland, Chair 27 28 29 30 Attest: 31 32 ' 33 34 14/ 35 Kevin Hugman, Directr, of Community Services Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, February 11, 1999 Page 7 of 7 L: IParkRecICOMITEESIJUCIMINUTES199 minutesl2- 11- 99.doc