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1998-10-08City of Southlake, Texas * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 CITY OF SOUTHLAKE 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 JUC-JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEETING October 8, 1998 MINUTES Board Members Present: Doug Strickland, Chair and CISD Board Representative; Gary Fawks, Vice Chair and City Council Representative; Buddy Luce, CISD Board Representative; James Glover, Parks and Recreation Board Representative; Wendi Carlucci, City Council Appointed Citizen. Board Members Absent: None. Staff Members Present: Curtis E. Hawk, City Manager; Kevin Hugman, Director of Community Services; Derek Citty, Assistant Superintendent, CISD. Agenda Item No. 1, Call to Order - The meeting was called to order by Chair Mr. Doug Strickland at 7:04pm. Agenda Item No. 2, Administrative Comments - Mr. Strickland congratulated Mr. Kevin Hugman for his new appointment to Director of Community Services and thanked Mr. Gary Fawks for accepting his newly elected position as Vice Chair. Consider Item No. 3, Approval of the Minutes of the September 8, 1998 Meeting - Motion was made to approve the minutes. Motion: Fawks Second: Carlucci Ayes: Strickland, Fawks, Luce, Glover, Carlucci Nays: None Approved: 5-0 Discussion Item No. 4, Presentation of Trail System Master Plan - Mr. Hugman stated that the Trail System Master Plan is part of the comprehensive master plan of the City of Southlake which includes such items as the Parks, Recreation and Open Space Master Plan, Thoroughfare Plan and Land Use Plan. Since the Trails System Master Plan is listed as a comprehensive plan under the city charter, it is required to be reviewed every four years. Mr. Hugman stated that the Trail System Master Plan will be up for review in 1999 since the last adoption was in 1995. Mr. Hugman stated that staff and the Parks and Recreation Board has reviewed the Trail System Master Plan and has designated guidelines for the side of the road in which to locate off-road trails. He stated that as development comes forward, the Sidewalk Ordinance requires trail construction on the developer's property in the right-of-way to build a larger trail section (6-foot) as opposed to a standard sidewalk section. W. Hugman stated that the Parks and Recreation Board has approved the Trail System Master Plan with these designated guidelines. Mr. Hugman stated that this plan designates several types of trails throughout the city that includes equestrian trails, on/off-road bicycle and pedestrian paths that are paved concrete 6-foot Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, October 8, 1998 Page 1 of 5 l: Iparkreclcomitees juclminutesl98-10-08.doc City of Southlake, Texas * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 wide sections. Mr. Hugman stated that currently the right-of-way sections are designed with a 2 14-foot driving/bicycle/pedestrian lane and an 11-foot driving lane. 3 4 As Mr. Strickland reviewed the Trail System Master Plan, he asked what the meaning was behind 5 the on-road routes, one that is a "no additional lane width" and the other is a "wide outside lane". 6 Mr. Fawks said that no additional pavement would be required as surface roads would be utilized 7 to connect the trail system. Mr. Hugman stated that the bicycle lane would not be striped, but the 8 outside lane would be wider than the standard driving lane. He stated that "no additional lane 9 width" refers to low traffic areas. Mr. Hugman said that staff is discussing with the Parks and 10 Recreation Board adding signage to these bicycle lane areas. He said that Byron Nelson Parkway 11 is shown as an on-road bicycle trail with an additional width, but due to the fact that when Byron 12 Nelson Parkway was platted, it was just before the current thoroughfare plan was adopted which 13 requires the wider right-of-way to accommodate the on-road bike lane. Therefore, Byron Nelson 14 Parkway is two feet narrower than the standard width required for a driving/bicycle lane. 15 16 Mr. Strickland asked how this project is funded and Mr. Hugman stated that the implementation 17 of the trails is funded through the SPDC half-cent sales tax. He said that staff has recently 18 worked with the Parks and Recreation Board and SPDC during a joint meeting to develop a 5- 19 year Capital Improvements Plan (CIP) which designates some funding for trails. Mr. Hugman 20 said that about $300,000 has been set aside to build 2-miles of off-road trail off of Continental 21 Road which will be widened from Davis to Peytonville in one phase and then Peytonville to 22 White Chapel in a second phase. Funds have been budgeted in the CIP to include an off-road 23 trail during this improvement. Mr. Hugman said that funds also include a 2-mile loop trail from 24 the Carroll Junior High School through Bicentennial Park up to Durham Elementary/Intermediate 25 School which is estimated at about $230,000 and is budgeted for FY00/01. He said that they 26 have also budgeted for a 1-mile pedestrian trail within Bicentennial Park which is not shown on 27 the Trail System Master Plan. He said that staff also hopes to expand and develop the equestrian 28 trails near the Corp property. Mr. Strickland asked if these trails will act as sidewalks. Mr. 29 Hugman said that the trails will be pedestrian/bicycle trails. Mr. Strickland stated that they are 30 not required to bus children that are within two miles from the school, but they do. Mr. Hugman 31 stated that the Trail System Master Plan designates priorities for where trails should be 32 developed, and trails/sidewalks connecting schools to adjacent neighborhoods is one of the top 33 priorities in the plan. Mr. Hugman stated that staff is working closely with developers and North 34 Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG). He said that the city staff has looked into 35 the possibility of applying for grant funding in the Spring of 1999 for trails such as the one on FM 36 1709/Southlake Boulevard under the NTCOG Transportation Enhancement Act. 37 38 Mr. Strickland stated that the 5-Year CIP should be an agenda item next month. Mr. Hugman 39 said that he was waiting until it was approved by SPDC, and will bring it forward in November. 40 41 Ms. Carlucci verified that the Trail System Master Plan would be reviewed next year and Mr. 42 Hugman agreed. He said that the Plan review consists of two phases. Phase one: Designate 43 current trails and on-road trails. Phase two: Identify future road projects and try to incorporate 44 trails into these projects. Mr. Hugman stated that many of the roads are not built to ultimate 45 width, so the Parks and Recreation Board discussed constructing an interim off-road trail until 46 final build out of the road is complete. At that time the final build out of the off-road trails will 47 begin. He said that the Parks and Recreation Board and staff has also discussed completing a 48 map for trail users which will assist in following trail signage. 49 Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, October 8, 1998 Page 2 of 5 I.- Iparkreclcomitees juclminutesl98-10-08.doc City of Southlake, Texas * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 Ms. Carlucci said that during revision, she would like to see the colors change so she can view 2 what has been completed. Mr. Hugman said that it could be done, but to continually update the 3 map would require it to be continually approved by the City Council. Mr. Hawk said that an 4 overview map showing the progress of the trails could be formulated. Mr. Hugman said that the 5 progress of trails could be implemented into the current parks facilities map. 6 7 Mr. Fawks congratulated Mr. Hawk on his 10 years with the City of Southlake. 8 9 Please note: See attached transcript of shaded items. 10 11 Discussion Item No. 5, Scheduling of Joint Use Facilities - Mr. Strickland said that he heard from 12 a resident who was searching for a facility where her daughters could practice basketball at least 13 two hours each week. He said that the school was able to schedule at least one hour each week. 14 Mr. Strickland said that this difficulty reveals that the school facilities are being utilized. Ms. 15 Carlucci said that she heard from another resident who would visit the school facilities and he 16 found that they were not being used. She said that it prompted her to request a review of the 17 master schedule. 18 19 Mr. Strickland asked why the city was only using Rockenbaugh Gym up to three weeks per 20 month. Mr. Hawk said that limited use by the city allows other community groups the 21 opportunity to utilize the facility. Mr. Hugman said that the city agreed to not use each campus at 22 least one night each week. He said that this schedule has not been approved which does result in 23 problems as staff must release the Southlake Scene recreation brochure in a timely manner. This 24 brochure lists the location of some events that utilize the school facilities. When the schedule 25 approval is delayed and the event locations are changed, this causes problems. He referred to the 26 recent change in location of the Southlake Saturday Nite from CMS to Durham. 27 28 Mr. Luce said that he did not understand how the schedule that was created in June for the 29 Fall/Winter events (August-December) was not approved as of the current month (October). He 30 asked who needs to approve this schedule. Mr. Hugman stated that the school principals are 31 sometimes hesitant to approve the schedule before the school year. He stated that the interlocal 32 agreement has been changed in order to submit three schedules that correspond to the three 33 Southlake Scene brochures (FallfWinter, Winter/Spring, Summer). This hopefully makes the 34 schedule more manageable for the principals. Mr. Hugman said that due to the scheduling 35 problems, next season the city may have to pay the regular fee for facilities other than CMS and 36 Durham Gymnasium for the use of the facilities. He said that this will result in staff looking into 37 increasing the cost of programs or cutting back on programs. Mr. Hugman said that Kathy 38 Schaeffer, Recreation Supervisor estimated the cost of facility usage through the basketball 39 season and the cost would be about $25,000 if facility usage fees are paid to CISD. 40 41 Mr. Hawk stated that staff needs assurance that the facility will be available for recreation 42 programs. He said that the city staff suggested that they pay the usage fees if that is the only 43 manner in obtaining guarantee of use. Mr. Hawk said that this issue refers to only the new 44 facilities. Mr. Fawks asked how the city programs continue without schedule approval. Mr. 45 Hugman said that staff must constantly contact the school to verify that the city has access to the 46 facility on published event dates. He said that the primary concern is with special events which 47 are one-time events that require a lot of advertising. 48 49 Mr. Hugman said that this item was brought forward so the committee may review the scheduled 50 events for next year. He stated that a number of principals said they heard that joint-use would no Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, October 8, 1998 Page 3 of 5 1: Iparkreclcomitees juclminutesl98-10-08.doc City of Southlake, Texas * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 longer exist and the City would pay fees for use. Mr. Luce said that he never heard about this. 2 Mr. Strickland asked that the joint use schedule return as an agenda item in December. Mr. 3 Strickland said that JUC has talked about expanding joint use and utilizing more joint-use 4 facilities and he is concerned that problems will continue to arise due to the fact that the current 5 schedule can not be approved six months after its creation. He said if the city and school district 6 can not come together to approve a joint-use schedule, there is obviously a problem. Mr. Luce 7 said that there have been difficulties, but he believes that it is 95% workable. Mr. Luce said that 8 he understands that it is a monumental nightmare to notify participants of location changes. He 9 said that the school does notify the city and the city has been able to notify participants. He said 10 that for example, Southlake Saturday Nite was not at CMS, but a school facility was utilized. Mr. 11 Luce said that principals were hired who did not know that joint-use was an occurrence at their 12 school so they did not schedule the city. He said that this was a flaw on the school district's part. 13 Mr. Hawk said that the schedule should be approved in a timely manner. The fact that the 14 schedule is not approved, may reveal that joint-use is not working when future joint-use projects 15 come up for review and approval. Mr. Glover said that a broader base of support for joint-use 16 could be built if it is shown that joint-use has been a success. Mr. Strickland said that it was 17 apparent to him during the town meetings, that the public was unaware that the stadium and the 18 gymnastics center/natatorium may be a joint-use project. Mr. Luce said that the committee 19 should develop a resolution to clarify what was the original intent of the sales tax money. 20 21 Discussion Item No. 6, Future Joint Use Facilities, Projects, and Goals - Mr. Strickland reviewed 22 the packet enclosures and said that with regard to Long-term Item No. 5 should read "Swim 23 Center/Gymnastics Center". He said that he is amazed that the public is not aware of the swim 24 center/gymnastics center. Mr. Strickland said that this project, as well as a Teen Center, would be 25 excellent outlets for the youth. Mr. Glover said that the Parks and Recreation Department 26 provides programs for youth up to the age of 15. He said that there are no recreation programs 27 for those in high school, so the community must meet the need for these youth as well. Mr. 28 Fawks said that it would be appropriate to term the Teen Center as joint-use. 29 30 Mr. Hawk said that he reviewed the Recreation Center/Gymnasium/Natatorium plans for the City 31 of Benbrook. He said that the concept could be something that the City of Southlake could 32 review. Mr. Hawk said that a concept plan should be available to the public for when they vote 33 for such a project. Mr. Luce said that there is a concept plan for the Gymnasium/Natatorium. 34 Mr. Fawks asked if the plan could be reviewed by the city if it is a joint-use project. Mr. Glover 35 said that the issue is marketing. A concept plan of this joint-use project would assist in marketing 36 to the public. 37 38 Mr. Hawk suggested that Mr. Luce take a concept plan to the Park Board and the Senior Advisory 39 Board and then create a financial plan based on the Park Board's recommendation to SPDC that 40 funds be allocated for the project. They should review the level and type of City programming 41 that could be done in this facility. 42 43 Please note: Actual tape recording ends here. 44 45 Mr. Fawks asked how many acres were required for a stadium if parking were not an issue. Mr. 46 Strickland said they are looking at 10 acres. There was general discussion regarding the siting of 47 the facility at Town Square. Mr. Luce said that they would have to bus people to the game from 48 off-site parking. 49 Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, October 8, 1998 Page 4 of 5 1: Iparkrec lcomitees juclminutes198-10-08.doe City of Southlake, Texas * * OFFICIAL MINUTES * * APPROVED BY THE JOINT UTILIZATION COMMITTEE MEMBERS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Mr. Luce said they would get the plans for the natatorium to the City staff to review and take to Park Board for their review and recommendation as to whether to include the project in the 5- Year CIP. Agenda Item No. Adjournment - Being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 8:50pm. Doug Strick nd, Chair Attest: Kevin Hugman, Director of Community Services Joint Utilization Committee Meeting, October 8, 1998 Page 5 of 5 l: Iparkreclcomitees juclminutesl98-10-08.doc City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- NC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Discussion Item No. 5, Scheduling of Joint Use Facilities - Strickland - I had a little experience last week. I had a mother that called trying to get her little girls basketball team ...I called you, Kevin ...I finally ...I don't know why they called me, I mean I don't know anything about it, but she was trying to get her little girls in to schedule one night a week a month and really had a hard time finding a place in any of the gyms to get her in there. I guess in a way that's good because they are being utilized, but she was quite frustrated. We finally found ...it wasn't the night that she wanted, she wanted two hours a night and we found one hour a night for those four weeks that she wanted. Hopefully she was happy. The lady at the middle school that schedules the gyms there at the middle school found some space. We had Coach Ledbetter and everyone involved trying to make this mom happy. Carlucci - I've had a couple of women call me complaining about that. In fact, one of the husbands called and said that he went around the schools for an entire week to look to see whether they were using the facilities and they weren't being used. Strickland - Oh really. Carlucci - So he was hot. In fact he told me that is why he didn't vote for the bond because he thought it was just rhetoric. He was really mad. So I told ...that's why I asked Dr. Gillum for this list because I got this a couple weeks before because I said that I would be happy to go with him to the different schools ...plan an evening that we go and look and see who's there and who's not there - you know, find out. So... Strickland - Well, if you look at this schedule... Carlucci - It's full. Luce - Who's there now, may not be who's there in basketball time either. Did that person want them now, like in the next ...this week? Carlucci - One has wanted them for some time is what... basketball family ...in fact, they're in Grapevine because they couldn't get any time here, they were told there wasn't any. Then when he went around to the different schools and found out they weren't being used ...so...they were made. Strickland - Hmmm. That's hard to understand. Carlucci - So, that's why I asked for the master list too. Fawks - Why is Rockenbaugh being used an average of five hours a week? For a three-month period, it looks like we are only using it for three weeks. Hawk - Don't you have community groups besides the school and the city using the school facilities. Strickland - Well, I know that we have a coordinator there that schedules these things. I mean, I'm not too sure, Curtis, who all uses them. I'm really not. Fawks - It's scheduled at the individual schools by the principals. Strickland - Well, the principal has an assistant that normally does this at each campus. But you're right, Monday ...I mean, what happened to Tuesday? Maybe they're not used at all on Tuesday. Luce - This looks to me like this is during the city basketball league time. Page 1 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Hugman - To answer your question about the Tuesday, when we had met earlier this year with Ted [Dr. Gillum] and his principals, one of the complaints from last year was that they didn't have enough time, they felt, for their own programs. So what we had agreed to do was to leave one night out that we wouldn't ask for the use of it. Strickland - Is that true for the other campuses also. Hugman - All the campuses have one night that we're not using them [they gym] at all. These schedules are in here to just show the activity that we've been having there. We have not gotten this schedule approved yet and so sometimes that causes problems in being able to...because we have to get our brochures out early. The brochures go out and we designate where an event is going to be held and if there's a change to it then it causes problems. We had a problem recently with Southlake Saturday Nite where we had to change the location of it to Durham which is a less desirable set up...turned out to be some problems. We try to get these schedules approved early on so that we can publicize the location. Fawks - I'm confused. If you made this [schedule] in June to start in August and it's already approaching the middle of October, why haven't we had it approved? Strickland - You're saying that this schedule has not been approved. Hugman - No it has not. Fawks - Who needs to approve it? Hugman - Well, these are approved by the school principals and we have been working with them trying to get them approved, but sometimes they are a little hesitant to do it...early in the school year I guess, but we did change the interlocal agreement and split it into three seasons to make it more manageable. We've been talking with Steve Johnson and Bob Ledbetter, trying to get these approved. In general, we've been following it, but sometimes it makes us a little uneasy when we don't have the agreement... Strickland - Well, it's a little hard for you to schedule when you don't know for sure about the availability of the facility. Hugman - Yes. Glover - The biggest issue that it creates for them is the ability to communicate with people ...the brochure it mailed to everyone's home in Southlake ahead of time ...it has the various programs that are being offered by the Parks Department and it says where those programs are going to be. People come in, sign up for programs, it [location] changes between the time they sign up and the time that it starts, then you have to call all of those people saying "by the way it's not where we told you it was going to be, it's somewhere else ...30 minutes earlier or 30 minutes later." Hugman - The other thing along with that, it's obvious we have to be able to plan our programming and how many people that we are going to accept in a program. For next season, because of some of the problems that we've been having with scheduling and being assured that we would get our schedule, we are going to probably end up paying the regular fee for the facilities other than CMS and Durham gym for the use of those facilities and schedule like everyone else does. What that will do is, we are going to have to look at increasing the cost of our programs or cutting back on some of them. I had our Recreation Supervisor, just for example, pull basketball because that is one of our heavy uses of the gyms and we could end up spending about $25,000 on gym time to use it as much as we are now, so we're going to have to look at some of those things and decide whether we increase the cost... Page 2 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Fawks - Now I want to make sure I understand what you just said, CMS gym... Hugman - CMS and Durham gyms we will still be using but like to use Rockenbaugh or some of the other facilities that we've used then we will pay the fee... Hawk - We had the same problem last year about scheduling facilities, the problems that the schools had was that other groups-Boy Scouts and those that you were talking about who try to schedule the facility and couldn't get them-so we said, OK, what we need to do is to make sure when we get something on schedule, we can guarantee it. If we have to pay for it to guarantee it, that's what we'll do. Luce - Well, you can't guarantee it totally Curtis. Curtis - Well, that's true, but at least they feel comfortable because we put money up like the other people are willing to put money up. We've got the two facilities that are on a contract to be joint-use, but all these other facilities that are being built-all the details aren't in place. So, we said OK let's see what we can do and just pay the fee and if it is too expensive, we will build our own facility. But we've got to have some assurances if we're going to run an athletic program for the kids, seniors, adults, whoever that we have facilities-this creates a problem for us. Strickland - Let's all turn to page 4-3 just as an example-this is Durham, Tuesday, August 18-December 15. Kevin, when was this schedule submitted to the school-obviously it had to be just at the end of summer, June or July? Hugman - At the top of the schedule, it states "updated June 22, 1998" and by the interlocal agreement, we are supposed to turn it in by mid-June. Strickland - Are you operating under this schedule the gym from August 18-December 15 from 6:30pm- 8pm, Jazzercise. Is that working? Hugman - We have Jazzercise in there. Luce - How many of those have been missed? Hugman - As far as how many have been missed, I'm not really sure right now... Luce - You all are sitting there saying that there is a big problem with the schedule and I know that I've heard of some in the past, but I've never heard of any problem that has not generally been worked out. The bulk of the problem was a result of school functions like basketball games that were cancelled at the middle school because of ice or something, but was rescheduled the next day when there was something the city had scheduled, as opposed to a continuing of difficulty of just ok, all of a sudden you can't get into the facility. Hawk - No, I said that wrong then. Luce - Well, that's what I took it as. Hawk - Well, what I said was, we've got all these new facilities that are being built-Rockenbaugh was the first new one built and we had all these community groups that wanted to use the other facilities and you've got these principals of the different schools that are having to tell the people that go to those schools that they can't use these schools because all these other things are going on with the city and where are the facilities that are available for the other groups in the community. What we said was that one the new Page 3 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 facilities, not Durham and Carroll because see how it fits in, have been locked in with an agreement-on the new facilities, let us compete like everyone else, we'll pay the same fee that everyone else pays. This gives us an opportunity to see what kind of load we've got and it shows us, where we need to do different facilities. I think the way this community is growing, what the principals told us and what Ted [Gillum] told us is that there is a significant interest in other groups in the community to use the schools. The whole idea is to get those facilities used. So that is what we are talking about-on the new facilities, as the new facilities come on line-Rockenbaugh which was the first new one-let's look at that because we can...I guarantee we can put programs in every facility that we fmd-it still leaves out all those other people that are also constituents out in the cold. So, at some time we've got to look at how we're going to do all of this and it may well be that we pick another gym-we've talked about the gym at the Jr. High for example that we need to work another agreement in like this and that means we've got to do some other things perhaps to make it where we have that participation and it gets back to how do we share these things. Strickland - What is troubling me is, Kevin, that if this was submitted to us in June, I can't see why this has not been approved. I don't see how you can print up literature... Luce - You say it hasn't been approved, I haven't heard any confirmation that it's not operating fairly much as what's exactly on there [the schedule]. Strickland - Have you had any problems, Kevin to your knowledge? Hugman - As I said, there was an event a couple weeks ago that we had to move because we initially thought we were going to have the CMS gym for a Southlake Saturday Nite event and we were told that we couldn't because there was something else going on there. So, we had to move it to Durham. The set-up is not as good there. The fact is really, the ongoing events are where we have better luck. In the absence of a signed agreement, we are constantly verifying with the principals -"are we going to have these events scheduled?" or "Is there any conflict that you see with this event?" It takes our time to constantly stay on top of this. I would say that I have not heard anything with the regularly scheduled events, but the special events are the ones that concern us the most. Those are the ones that we have to put a lot of advertising into, it's a one-time event and if something happens... Glover - If they [school] have to move a basketball event from one place to another, they [Parks staff] have a communication method for that. They call all of the coaches, tell us all that it has moved and we call all the teams and tell them that it's at a different place. If you have 100 people signed up for an event like Southlake Saturday Nite... Strickland - What is Southlake Saturday Nite? Fawks - They don't event sign up for that event, they just show up. Strickland - Is that basketball? Hugman - It's a dance. Fawks - It's kind of like a lock in at the gym where they come for four hours and have... Strickland - These are what grade of kids? Hawk - Under driving age. Hugman - It's about 12-15, but what it requires is that we sign every kid in and at CMS sign up is easier because everyone can be inside. Page 4 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Strickland - Kevin, do you have any idea what the school function was? Hugman - They had the eighth grade dance, I think, or something like that at CMS. Fawks - When did you find out? Hugman - We found out about three weeks ahead of time. It was before we sent the fliers out, but it was right before and we were faced with the decision of either changing the date or changing the location. My decision was to change the location. Strickland - Now the older gym, the original gym, was it being used also? Hugman - I'm not sure if it was being used or if... Strickland - Or was it not compatible with what...? Hugman - It was not compatible with what was already scheduled. It would not have worked, we would have had too many kids mixing, so...I don't think the gym was being used, I think it was more that we use both gyms and one was being used. Strickland - Curtis, we need to talk to administration and maybe look into modifying the agreement that we have to include these other gyms. Hawk - I'm sensitive to Ted's concerns about the other people in town using things. Luce - You mean non-recreational department type activities? Hawk - Yes, because I know those demands are out there, some of those people have called me. Fawks - Well, the guy with the select basketball team that is made up of Southlake students should be able to have access to the gym at some point and some place in our city. We don't want to book it out completely were they can't. Carlucci - I've also had parents tell me, "Well, I've got Girl Scouts..." and the principals will just say no. They don't want the girls in the gym, they don't want the mess, and they don't want... Fawks - Couldn't we set up a certain about of time in those facilities that could be available to us and still leave them [community] an opportunity, rather than totally... Strickland - That's what this [schedule] is. Fawks - Yes, but you were suggesting to expand that to include other facilities. Glover - Well, the other part of that is to get some type of buy in from the administration that when it is submitted, they have a time to react... Strickland - Yeah and to get back to you. Glover - I mean, the fact that it's October and something submitted in June-nobody has said definitely yes...had they looked at this, I assume the Southlake Saturday Nite was on there... Page 5 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Hugman - Yes. Glover - So, they would have known in June that it was on, they clearly had not planned the eighth grade dance yet at that point in time. Strickland - Yeah, well it sounds like somebody dropped the ball there. Where is that, Kevin, this Saturday Nite? Fawks - 4-7 at the bottom of the page, Saturday Nite - there are three dates set aside. Strickland - OK, Saturday Nite, September... Hugman - September 12 is the one that we had the conflict with. We have another one this weekend and it will be at CMS. Luce - Who did the dance, the PTO? Carlucci - Yeah. Hugman - We understand too that the school ...when we met with them earlier this year, we understood the principals concern that they had a hard time signing off on a schedule for a full year-they don't know what's going to come up. We agree, we said that's true. We put out our brochure three times a year and if we split it [the schedule] up into three times, is that OK? They said yes. We also agreed to try to leave some more flexibility in the schedule for them. We thought that was going to work. I'm not sure. There is still some reluctancy and I know that things come up with the schools, they have a speaker that they can bring in and they want to be able to get the PTO together, they want to have that flexibility and I understand that. Luce - Well, it's one of those things. The original agreement and the agreement that we are operating under says that even though that this is in place, if there is a school function that comes up or that is rescheduled or something comes up that conflict with that, then the school function has priority over this. Isn't that what it says? Hawk - But the thought that went into that was... Luce - Oh, I know. But this is a guideline and I'm not saying that it's an excuse that we can say we're going to call the school function and you can't use it. Hawk - But what we thought and what we talked about were, things like basketball games that you have at the school, that kind of thing. Luce - Well this sound like the PTO got together and some lady from the PTO Board said that school starts in the end of August and this is September 12-it shouldn't have happened, but... Strickland - Well, obviously we have school functions, we have city functions and other ...I just wonder, and I need to educate myself here, this lady that called the master schedule for the gyms at the Middle School, I can't remember the lady's name, but she supposedly had the master schedule that should include all the school, city and other functions. Hugman - When we set up the interlocal agreement several years ago, the idea was that we would be able to block out certain time and anything outside of that would be available to who ever, and... Page 6 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Strickland - It's bothersome to me that this hasn't been approved. I can see where that would put you in a bind. I'll have to look into that and see. Hugman - Well, we wanted to bring this... Luce - How is it approved as a practical matter? Hugman - The principal will sign off here and then Bob [Ledbetter] signs off and Ted [Gillum] signs off. Strickland - I don't think it would be hard to get to the bottom of this. Luce - We're operating under this. Has anybody from the city called and said that we need these back? Hugman - Yes, we've been calling. Strickland - There hasn't been a single principal commit to these schedules? Hugman - No, not yet. As far as I know, they haven't signed off on them yet or they've signed off on them, but I'm not sure where they're at. Last time I talked with Steve [Johnson, Asst. Supt.] he told me that Bob Ledbetter was going to call the principals and have them turn them in, but... Strickland - Has that been weeks ago or... Hugman - That was before the last JUC meeting. Strickland - So, a month ago. All right, well, that's good information. Hugman - We mainly wanted to bring this to you to, also we talked about what we were looking at for next year and right now, some of the principals have already said that they are scheduling for next year. We are putting our schedule together now because we have to turn them in by, here within the next few weeks, but a number of the principals said that they've heard that there wasn't going to be anymore joint use and we weren't going to... Strickland - The principals said that? Hugman - Yes, and we are trying to... Strickland - I haven't heard that. I haven't heard that at all. Hugman - Well, we are trying to clarify all that. Glover - It creates a real issue relative to trying to plan, if fees have to be charged. I mean if we are going to have to rent space, the fee for the next basketball league is clearly going to have to be higher. Hugman - Well, what I meant by that, by what they said was, they said "Well, we understand that you're going to have to pay us now." Hawk - There are a number of issues why we talked about trying to look at us paying for the cost of that. One is we can clear everything up, we can get a feel for what it's costing us to do all these things. There's a point when we can sit back and evaluate all the things that we're doing and try to recognize that you have needs too, you've got your own constituents out there. Page 7 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Fawks - When is the January, the next quarter schedule, due to the school? Hugman - In October. This next one will be the one with heavier use because of basketball. In fact, we're looking at about 400 hours. Strickland - I've heard Bob and I've heard others say, several times, that we want to try and share these schools. Kevin, there will be another schedule then, sometime this month. Hugman - Right. Fawks - I would suggest then, at our December meeting, that schedule comes back to us. I'm not going to say November, because that won't give the principals time to look at it. I think that it would be appropriate for us to look at it, approved or unapproved to know the status of the next quarter. Hugman - We can do that. Strickland - OK, any other comments regarding scheduling of joint-use facilities? Fawks - We were talking this evening before the meeting started about that fact that we want to expand joint-use, we want to put more facilities on line that are joint-use and this is just going to become more and more convoluted and complicated and we need to work through it. I think that whatever difficulty we are having with it now...so that we have a system in place that everybody can live with as we move on to the next level because if we start talking about multi-use stadiums and natatoriums-that's just going to be more people, more competition for time and if we're going to get serious about doing joint-use and growing with programs-if we can't even come together on a way to agree on a schedule, then we have a problem. Strickland - Yeah, with the few gyms that we have now. Luce - I don't understand where we are right now for the simple reason that we've been doing this exact same thing for two years and I'm well aware that there's been difficulties and flaws in scheduling, but it's my perception and belief that it's about 95% workable. So, let's not act like and talk like this thing is just screwed up and not working because that's not the case. Fawks - I'm just disappointed that we can come in six months afterwards and not have ...not six months, but three or four months after the fact ...and not have the principals signed off and say we agree to this schedule. Luce - I don't understand that myself, but what I do believe is happening and what Kevin has basically said is that this is being followed approved or unapproved other than one thing that has happened. I just want to make sure it's clear on the tape that that's what happened over the last couple of years. I mean, obviously there are scheduling difficulties and things that come up, but all in all, I believe it's a...it's been a pretty workable deal. Yeah, it's a monumental nightmare to make sure everything is done and notified when changes occur and happen. There are times when modifications have been made, you all have been notified, you all have been able to change a Jazzercise class or something and move it and we've tried to work around things. Just like Southlake Saturday Nite, it didn't happen at CMS, but it did happen in a school facility. It might not have been a fun set-up, but a facility was used. Fawks - All valid points, but I guess ...but it's my recollection we kind of put this scheduling and approval process in place to...because we used to have more problems, we used to have more conflicts, it was a much more common occurrence, and now it's... Page 8 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- NC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Luce - Some principals were hired that were brand new that didn't have any clue that it was there and in 99% of the world, principals are directly in charge of their campus and nobody schedules anything that they don't know about. So all of a sudden, and that was a problem on our side, I mean we didn't say, by the way, this isn't a normal school, we do joint-use, the city is going to be using your gym and cafeteria a bunch of times and, you know, that was a flaw. Once we got past that, I think it's worked pretty good. Hawk - It has and I want to be sure that I say, when we experienced those problems that first year, and we had some over bookings of some things. We had one night that was really embarrassing because two groups showed up at the same time, but we've worked through those things. Ted's been real good to work with in trying to get those things done. I don't know why all the reasons this agreement... because it should have been signed, it should have been signed off on a long time ago, but the reality is, we are following it for the most part, we had one little glitch and it worked out. What I hear Gary [Fawks] say and what I think is a possibility is that when we start looking at future joint-use kinds of things, we need to have all our P's and Q's together so we can show people how it works and how everything is done. That way, we avoid some ...because there is always going to be those people who don't like joint-use on either side and they'll use it to show that we can't even get a schedule signed. Glover - I think one of the points that we can take away from this and I think where Gary was trying to go with this is, we are moving forward with a lot. I think there's a lot of things that the schools would like to do and we need to find a way to communicate those in such a way that we get broader support from members of the school district who are most of which are also tax payers within the city. That they understand some of the things that are coming forward in planning, can be joint-use, they can be things that the whole community can make use of and show them the track record of what has happened with joint-use and show them that this can work. You know, you built this new gym here out of the last bond issue and half the time it's being utilized for recreation programs, for this, this, this by the community. So, it's not just bond issues with the school tax dollars at work, but those tax dollars are working elsewhere also. As you look at some of the things we'd like to have with the schools, the swim center is one that comes to mind immediately, and that's an ideal joint-use type situation. You've got the elderly programs, a lot of the exercise programs that the women love in the pool. Those kinds of things that we can talk about joint-use on issues like that going forward and point to some of the successes elsewhere and have a system in place where we can show those successes. I think we can build a broader base of support for some of the things that the schools need that on the surface may appear to people to be extravagant, but they realize that they are going to have a whole second tier of use that they don't see initially. We can communicate that going in, we can get some value for it. Strickland - It's quite apparent to me, after attending two of our community gatherings on Monday night and last night, Wednesday night, it's quite apparent to me that the majority of the people who got up and spoke, did not have a clue that the stadium and the swim center/gymnastics center, were going to be joint- use projects. We did not do a good job with getting that out. Luce - About 10 of the people stood up and said why weren't we using sales tax money from the half cent sales tax to build it since that is what it was allocated for. Strickland - True, but what I'm saying is that they did not know that it was intended to be joint-use. Luce - I agree with what you're saying and on the other side of that coin as I mentioned, I think what this committee needs to do is come up with some resolution to clarify what was originally the intent of the sales tax money ...was to share some of that money to build things such as gymnasiums, natatoriums, etc. Hawk - And the first thing we built was a gym. Page 9 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Luce - Well, we build three since then, Curtis. But we're getting to the point that we're going to and if we don't start talking about it, we're talking about a five year plan by SPDC and you know, we've talked and talked and every time it's time to talk about it, there's other issues that, you know, are directly related to the city that aren't, other than some Bicentennial stuff. I think that the community is asking for not just advalorem school tax money that's just being used for all this, but they're saying since sales tax money comes from all around the whole area, it allows us to use someone else's money to do some things. Hawk - Yeah, and what we've been doing, other than Bicentennial Park and Bob Jones Park is buying land. That's all we've done, bought land. And...we're still talking about future facilities, yet? Fawks - I didn't mean to say that the system is broken as much as...it's a concern that we do have something that works. Strickland - Let me reword what I think that you were trying to say. I think what you were trying to say is, while we are small, let's see if we can't get a system of communication together, and you can see some kinks here, let's work on it, let's straighten that out and get us a system of communication together that when we get a lot more projects on line, hopefully we'll have a system together. Fawks - That's exactly what I was trying to say. Luce - But as best as it gets, there's going to be conflict. Hawk - Even the programs we run ourselves, we have problems. Fawks - With future facilities, the challenges we still face is we're in the infancy of building our park system and what we're trying to do is find, what I believe, find areas where our needs overlap and ensure that the facilities that we build. Like we need a gym, so we built a school gym and we use it, we need softball fields, so we build softball fields to the standards so the schools could use. But we're just not mature enough in our programs to be able to divert funds yet to the school priorities. Hugman - The 5-year plan, I'll say that... Luce - I'm just suggesting that we start talking about it in more detail, I'm not saying let's start dividing it up tomorrow. I'm saying, what we need to do is reflect what I think the people want to do and from what Doug [Strickland] and I heard and that's hearing a concept that citizen's believing that it's a good way to fund some of these things. Something that we've talked about for years and years. We could all say that we're not there yet, but lets start talking about a way to do that so they'll know that's where we're trying to get to. Hugman - That is part of what we are trying to do with the 5-year plan because there are a lot of needs that are identified, people asking why don't we build this, why don't we build trails, tennis courts. With this 5- year plan, what we've been able to find is that if you took all the priorities that the Park Board has identified as needs and they've prioritized those needs and spread them out over five years, we couldn't fund everything in the first two years that the SPDC and Park Board wanted to be funded. We're talking $20 million over five years and we had to move projects out, cut them up, split them into phases because we couldn't fund everything that people want built and satisfy all the needs that are out there. There are needs for tennis, inline hockey, ball associations... Fawks - Have we communicated with the school on the tennis facilities to make sure whatever we're doing ...that there's nothing different that we should be doing a little bit different so it can be joint-use? Strickland - Is that at Bob Jones Park? Page 10 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Fawks - Bicentennial Park, we're putting in a twelve court tennis center in. We ought to make sure that it's up to whatever it has to be to make sure that it can be used by the school. Where we have needs that overlap, that's where we don't want to miss, to be sure you can use them too. Luce - I'm not trying to be flippant, but how many ways are there to build a tennis court? Fawks - Well, how many ways are there to build a baseball field? We almost build one that wouldn't be UIL approved. Luce - Well, there's a regulation distance on the softball, I believe all tennis courts are the same size. Fawks - Well, as soon as I didn't ask the question, there would be a different answer. Hawk - We're trying to make sure that spectator stuff is there-it's something that they need to be aware of. Strickland - That is a good point, like Buddy [Luce] said, a tennis court is a tennis court, but like we found out, a softball field isn't really a softball field, so who in our system would we run that by? Carlucci - Coach Doran. Fawks - I think next time we meet when we have that 5-year plan in front of us is a good time to go, here's a good program for joint-use, let's make sure that the school has a look at it, here's something else that we're going to do that can benefit the school... Strickland - OK, Curtis, who in the city is our tennis court guru? Hawk - Well, Ben Henry is the Park Planning and Construction Superintendent. Hugman - I would say, that more than likely it's built to the standards of the USTA, because they have assured that it is. Fawks - When we're building facilities that could potentially be used by the school, I think it's important that we get input from the school about anything that we need to tweak on it to make sure that you can use it. It's way too late after we finish putting the concrete down. Strickland - OK, I'll look into that. Is Ben Henry in your office? Hugman - Yes. Strickland - What's his extension? Hugman - 824. Discussion Item No. 6, Future Joint Use Facilities, Projects and Goals - Strickland - Again, we've been supplied a copy of both the long range and short range facilities and we have some of these marked off as completed, we have some that we've deleted. The shadowed areas are the completed items. On Item No. 5, I would like to make a comment on long-term, top of the page, swim center should read "Swim Center/Gymnastics Center." Like I said, I've really been amazed with the lack of information, the lack of knowledge that people have about that facility. I'm on this Drug Awareness Committee and that's one of the things that came through loud and clear over and over and over, the kids have nothing to do. It seems Page 11 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 to me that we had one parent get up and say that we don't need a swim center/gymnastics center and asked why the schools doesn't just donate that 3-1/2 acres east of the high school to the city for a Teen Center. What are we talking about, maybe five years down the road? Hugman - It's programmed in to start design this fiscal year and construction next fiscal year in the 5-year plan. Glover - We have a piece of land at Bicentennial Park which we could spend our money on the facility instead of land and parking. We could put it at Bicentennial Park at this particular spot where we have parking and road access. Hawk - It's near the sand volleyball courts. Glover - All of the things that the kids would use. Strickland - That facility along with this, if one of these days when we get there with this swim center/gymnastics center, I would think that they would be two excellent places for kids to go. They could have open swimming in the middle of the winter if they wanted to, all kinds of things for kids to do. The gymnastics center, I don't see why it couldn't be built to have volleyball in there in bad weather. Based on the school side, we have got to get that information out to the people before we have another attempt at it. There is a lot of education to do and maybe we just didn't do a very good job. Luce - How are you all proposing to pay for this Teen Center? Hugman - It's out of SPDC funds, we have budgeted $ l million for that. Hawk - What they did was knock something else down the priority list. Glover - We basically did an analysis from the Park and Recreation Board side of our recreation programs, all of our programs end at age 14, age 15 is the oldest that we do anything for. So, when they hit high school, when they become the most vulnerable in most people's opinions, we quit on them. Thanks, but the rec programs are over. There aren't any for them. Everything stops at 14. We recognize we have to address that need from the Park Board's standpoint. Fawks - That's another facility that I think it's appropriate, as we move toward planning, that if we get any input from the school's about anything that we ought to try and include that would make it a more useful facility for CISD to hold something. If there is a possibility, maybe a foldaway stage that would allow you all to do some things... Hawk - PTO dance. I overheard discussions that the city and the schools and the natatorium were beginning to come back up as an issue and what came to my mind was the City of Benbrook. They built a recreation center for the community that the YMCA runs. I've got a copy of the plans. It's a split-level facility because of the terrain, but they've got a gym on the lower floor and then on the other floor they've got a natatorium, a place for aerobics, Jazzercise, multi-purpose things, basketball and indoor volleyball. The idea of the thing is in my mind when we talk about a joint-use facility. This is the kind of facility that this community would use. Luce - What is the difference between that and the natatorium/gymnastics facility. Hawk - I don't know, I've never seen what you all have in mind. Luce - You've seen Grapevine's natatorium... Page 12 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Hawk - What I'm saying's that one of things that we're starting to discuss, because we had a Town Hall thing come up at the last City Council meeting-the architectural things, it seems to me if we're going to do some sort of joint-use facility, this natatorium/gymnasium, if it's going to include aerobics and all these things that the community can use during non-school hours, maybe the thing we ought to think about doing is hiring somebody to do a concept plan. I would hope that you have some sort of plan, get it so that this committee or a subcommittee could put together a concept plan so people know what they are voting on. Fawks - Let's just take the natatorium as an example, you're asking about access to half-cent sales tax funds and like I've said, we run into a point where we have different priorities at this point in time, but if we got together as a group-as a city and a school administration-and designed this natatorium/gymnasium center so that it meets both of our needs-is it possible that you all go forward with a bond issue, with a commitment for future funds. I mean how long of a debt are you talking about for this project? Luce - Gary, didn't we talk about this at the last Joint-Use Meeting last summer-a natatorium. Did I not say, what we need before we go forward on this bond issue is, we don't need to say we're getting this money today, but it would be great to tell the people that the plan is for, when excess money comes in, it will be used to pay this debt. Fawks - Buddy, I'm just suggesting that we just take that concept a bit further and formalize it and say that... Luce - That's fine. Then let's move forward and do it. I'm just saying that we've talked about this before you got on the City Council, Gary. We need to move this ...I'm all for it...let's do it and do it...we've got a plan and I can show you what a natatorium looks like. It has a whole 25-yard warm up pool which is used for seniors, water babies, youth swimming. You may not know it, but Grapevine uses theirs for GCATS which is swimming for 8, 9-year olds. Fawks - Buddy, with all due respect, how can you have a finished product for a natatorium that you took to the voters and you called a joint-use project that nobody from the city has ever seen? Luce - Well, it's pretty simple, it's pretty simple. We don't use it all the time. It's just like every other thing that we built, you can use it...you can use it numerous any other time that it's not being used. Glover - I think the whole issue here is a marketing issue. We're talking about how to market this thing in a way that people understand it. Perception is reality. If they perceive that this something that everybody is going to get to use and that will ultimately be paid for by both sales tax and the bond issue - that's what we need to communicate, we need to market it that way. We have to agree on what we are building. If you could go to the voters and say that City Council and the Joint-Use Committee that the city appointed put together this plan and here's how it's going to go and over the next fifteen years, money will come back to the school district from the city sales tax to pay for this, you have a whole other story that you're telling. You are saying, let us borrow this money and sales tax dollars are going to pay back a portion of it. A swim center is something that the Park Board had listed as a need. If it can be more than just that under one roof and make sense, that's all the much better. Hawk - The voters need a concept and financial plan so they see what they are voting on, then everyone knows what it is and they can buy into it Strickland - I agree. I keep hearing from the voters, why isn't this a joint-use project. It is and that is something that we didn't get across to the voters. Page 13 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- NC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Fawks - I think that it's to your advantage to have this thing a little more formalized before you get back to the voters... about what the numbers are going to be, so we don't end up with a Durham Gym argument. I've heard that people want to see our two groups working together and I think that the natatorium is a good place to start. I think that this committee should grab with both hands... Glover - One of the great marketing techniques is comparison. If you could take to people in Southlake about something that is being built in Benbrook...one of the things that hurt you with the Stadium thing ...and it was just bad timing and bad luck, was all the publicity about SMU $52million, 60,000 seating that came out two weeks before our election for our $17 million, 9,000 seat stadium. You suffered from the perception. Luce - I agree with your marketing deal. That's one thing that we learned, people like to have more models, pictures and all that. In the past, we've never had that, we've never had active opposition by people, elected officials and others and we haven't had people on the board try to destroy the trust in the community. I agree with the marketing. Strickland - The need that we have, the community center that you're talking about and this, I mean everybody has kids and there is not anything more important on either side than our kids. This a good place to start building trust between the City Council and the school board and get this thing back in between the lines and move on. Fawks - What I would also suggest ...I would think that you probably had some difficulty with some of the older citizens when you go with a bond package the size you had...if we dress this up, the natatorium, as a benefit for senior citizens... Glover - Market something like this to each group differently. You market to each group what they are going to get out of this swim center. The biggest problem with this is that each person has their own perceived need. Hawk - We've got a Park Board that had high on it's list, this multi-purpose facility, it would seem important to me to have the plans that you've already completed reviewed by the Park Board so they can think of the kinds of needs that they perceive. Strickland - Capabilities of the facility. Hawks - Yes, ways in which it may be used. As an adjunct to that, get with the Senior Advisory Group to let the seniors have a feel for how they would use a natatorium. Then come up with a financial plan where the Park Board recommends to the SPDC and SPDC goes back in and it knows what year it will start to pay. You will then have the Park Board and senior recommendation that ought to be something that you could market. Glover - This is not something that you are trying to con the Park Board into believing they need, because we already need it... Strickland - One huge constraint is the dollars, we're talking about $7.5 million dollars right now. Fawks - And it could be that that is enough to do what you're talking about. If you are able to go back and say that three of that is going to come back from us from SPDC, starting in the year 2004. I'm not sure that the exact things we just talked about don't apply to the multi-use stadium as well. If you are committed to making that a true joint-use facility where we are going to have significant time in it for city events, then we just need to get together and discuss that... Page 14 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- JUC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Strickland - I've talked to Kevin about that some and it seems that maybe the stadium itself is not a great need as this smaller facility. Fawks - I would say a natatorium without a doubt. Glover - It may be something, if you could get there, what modifications would it take to the stadium to make it so that it would generate... Luce - Attractive for joint-use? Glover - Yeah. Hugman - As we've said before in the JUC meeting a year ago, there were things that we could do in a stadium with certain things, but then based on some of the things that you were going to put in the stadium, that took out some of those uses that we could have had. Strickland - Like without a track? Hugman - Right, without a track and without... Hawk - There is a restriction with the Town Square site which really creates a problem for joint-use. If you are committed to that 37 acres site and you get by the fact that everyone is... Strickland - There is discussion of the high school or renovating Dragon Stadium. Hawk - I've got your letter and I'm still trying to prepare a careful response, but if it is something that is part of the TIF and you are going to put your dollars into it and all those things can be worked out, then you package it in a way that it is truly a joint-use you've got your track in it so the kids can use it for summer track programs... maybe there is still a way to make that thing work. I think that it's going to be a hard sell since the football stadium was an issue. That's why I think that you need that much more involvement, because you've got to convince the Park Board that it's truly a joint-use facility. Luce - Everything that we've heard for the last four or five months, Curtis, was that you all didn't want a joint-use ...you all weren't going to use the stadium that much. Hawk - We couldn't. We got locked in with the Town Square location which reduced the size and took out the track which really limited the ability of the city to use it. In addition to the track, there was discussion of facilities under the stadium-racquetball, weight room ...so there ought to be a way to buy the Park Board into that thing too and then make another run at it. Fawks - That is the appropriate Board to approach. Carlucci - It didn't go to the Town Square because it wasn't big enough to put the track in? Hawk - No, it was the expense and the land available reduced. Luce - The overwhelming reason was that the developer really didn't want it there once everything was complete. Strickland - There was a pie-shaped seven-acre place. Hawk - It was going to take more land when you consider the parking and the other things. Page 15 of 16 City of Southlake, Texas -TRANSCRIPTION- NC COMMITTEE MEETING MINUTES October 8, 1998 Luce - I'm not saying that to be derogatory to the developer, I don't blame him, that would be my decision too in reality. I just think that he created some hurdles that made it impossible to happen, Curtis. Hawk - That may well have been the ultimate result, I don't think that was his intent. What we recognize and what you have to recognize is that the limitations were there because he has to have the revenue generation capability to make all of the other things work. So... Luce - The parking issue was something that he could have told us seven months ago. He knew that it was going to take more parking, Curtis. Fawks - Wasn't that really an interim problem? Couldn't you use buses for the games for two or three years? Luce - It was a land size issue too. Strickland - It was seven acres and one of the things was the way the thing was shaped and the way the road came through, the way our architects explained to us. We would have had to design the site to make it a double deck type thing which would have escalated the cost something terrible to get it to fit on this pie- shaped area. Hawk - If you are down to the sites being the high school or the 37 acres site, then buying the Park Board into true joint-use and how it all fits in, then... Strickland - What we have as far as the stadium is concerned and run it through this panel, let them look at it and come up with some ideas to make it more compatible to joint-use. In other words, what we could add... Fawks - So they can use it. Luce - Yeah, yeah. (End of tape) Page 16 of 16